Tuesday, November 15, 2005

Interesting thoughts on catholic baptism.

I was in a Catholic Forum, and I ran across a post on Phillips fast. I wondered what it was about, so I kept reading in that thread. I came to realize that one of the Catholics who was talking about this, was not a Roman Catholic, or any other Catholic that I was familiar with, but instead was something called a Catholic Lite. I had never heard of them! So, like a good, (curious, little, monkey) girl, I Googled "Catholic Lite" to see what they were all about.
(Ok, so I don't know much about them even after I Googled, but I still wanna say this broad generalizing thing about them... No I won't say it, I really want to, but I won't.)
What I do want to talk about is this sermon thing that I found and read: http://www.prime.org/audio/CatholicLiteSermon1-13-2001.html
It says some interesting things about being baptized in the name of Jesus, and not in the Trinity. It says, basically, that Romans Catholics are really bad. Yeah, really bad to have taken Jesus' name out of baptism. It has many, many, excerpts from the Bible and other sources, that reinforce the point it is trying to make.
I was all bristly when I read it first. However, that is normal for me. I always go all bristly and defensive of my Church in Rome. I sometimes like to look at anti-catholic, anti-Rome, literature (propaganda), and then go looking for my own little answers on other Roman Catholic sights. Ok, what bothered me is that I didn't find one this time. It is really bothering me, because something in the verses they quoted is ringing true to my heart.
Look at this one in particular:
Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Then all the questions started coming at once and I ran out of patience to look, so I decided to just post them here, and hope that God convinces the answers to find me instead of me having to search them out.
What if we are just missing that little bit?
(Side note: I don't particularly desire the gift of speaking in tongues, but I am really interested in, yearning for, the gift to interpret them.)
Is it possible to have a valid Ordination without a valid Baptism?
I'm pretty sure the answer is no, so then what? Can they be right? It's then logically possible for them to deduce that we are being led astray, and not following God's will. Our Popes would then become invalid wouldn't they? Or is there a loop hole?
What about the whole Baptism of Desire?
Someone has got to tie that one in there for me as well.

I admit that I have read history about bad/evil popes, but I have only known JPII. I felt the Holy Spirit was with him. How about that Baptism of Desire?

That stupid 'sermon' has got me all flustered. I might forward all this jargon to an old Professor or two and see what they have to say, but right now I am looking for other sources. Hey, all you theological people, drop me a line! Please, help me out here.


Kate said...


Don't let this one shake you up. Basically, you're begging the question. In other passages, people are baptised without all the babbling. Does this mean they didn't receive the holy spirit? Or they didn't speak in tongues? Or simply that we don't know?

Basically, what it comes down to is that the trinitarian formula has been the traditional formula for baptism from time immemorial. Speaking in tongues is one of the spiritual charisms, but it is pretty clear from 1 Cor. 12 that not every baptised Christian receives it "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all speak in tongues?..." It's pretty obvious from the context (the 'Body has many parts" speech) that the answer is no. We should desire more of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but that doesn't mean we are going to get all of them. In fact, the only one we are ever promised to get is wisdom. (It's in James, I think, when he says "all that pray for wisdom will be granted it". If you really want the reference, email me and I'll find it).

My suggestion though is that you email the folk at Catholic Answers with your questions. (www.catholicanswers.org). They have a lot of ex-prots of all stripes on board, and are used to this sort of question.

The secret, my dear, is to be thoroughly rooted in history and tradition so that you can see how new and odd these weird interpretations of scripture are.

rockynuar said...

what about the end of matthew's gospel: go out to the whole world, teaching them and baptizing them in the name of the father and the son and the holy spirit?